Curse

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 11, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Removing versatility by a change of this sort is a terrible idea. Guild Wars was designed with utilizing a secondary class in mind.

/not signed

Its not removing any versatility, it is just a way to creat balance between the classes for a class whos primary attribute isnt as essential to what it does as the primary attribute is for all other primary classes for the most part. Just about any class can use mesmer skills as a secondary just as effectively as a mesmer can which makes thier skills more prone to beoming overpowered in secondary classes. A mesmer does not have the energy pool of an elementalist to use ele skills to the same effect as an ele can, not to mention that ele skills become considerably more powerful at atribbutes of 13-16 than do mesmer skills. That is just one example, basically as stated in the OP the primary attribute of other classes is more critical to the class being able to use those skills to their full potential than it is with the mesmer class which has led to the abuse of mesmer skills by other classes. If the could be linked to Fast Casting in the way I described you could still use the skills in a secondary, just not to the effect that a primary mesmer could. The way it should be.

Undivine · Sep 12, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Removing versatility by a change of this sort is a terrible idea. Guild Wars was designed with utilizing a secondary class in mind.

/not signed

So then, why does ANet want to nerf utilizing the secondary mesmer? I agree with the OP. If they want to nerf a skill so other classes don't use it as much, why do they have the nerf the mesmer along with it? I'm not so sure I agree with the OP on his solution, but I appreciate that he's acknowledging the problem.

Age · Sep 12, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Okay, interrupt 1/2 Orison of Healing or, better one, Dismiss Condition with 0,375 cast time ~~ Did you forgot that bosses in F and NF have halved cast time of skills?
And did you noticed one thing? Monks always have same builds in all missions (like I did Ice Caves of Sorrow to Abaddon's Mouth without changing my build with monk), Warrior's dont need to change neither... I think that only Mesmers must make a choice - Be good interrupter or be good damage dealer. I mean, because of all nerfs Mesmer's ARE weaker compared to other proffesions. Why? Because our skills are better on other characters then on a mesmer. And you gave few examples of how mesmer is good - Cool, but you can't bring 10 or 12 skills. A mesmer can be effective only versus one type of enemy - melee or caster. All other characters can be effectve versus ALL enemies.
And I think he was talking about Drain Enchantment, which must have higher Inspiration to be worth it's cost.

Orison of Healing is 1 sec casting time and Dismiss is 1/2 casting plus you need to have enchment on alley to get the full bonus or it takes 2 cast to remove a condition.Monks do in effect have to change builds from Ice Caves if one Monk is running the same bar or similar.The same goes for Warriors if they want to use stances and shouts that can be usefull to them as well as a speed boost.

You can deal that with a Ranger for interrupting as they can do that and you can do the damage.There other /Mo that use our skills to abuse them so it is no different.It wasn't Monks chaining Aegis it was Eles and Necros.Who knows about the Mesmer they can use it to.

gameshoes3003 · Sep 12, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

/signed
Wow,lots of arguments...
Read 'em all too.
But seriously, mesmers have little versatility in PvE.
Mesmer skills have been slightly nerfed and I don't like that.
That made me delete my mesmer (after having it for a few months).

Dean Harper · Sep 12, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

if your getting bored with memsers, its probably becuase they are not as accepted by the community as other professions. The only place Mesmers TRULY are at home is in PvP. In PvE, they are seen as a class that does not "do anything" to add to party success and speed. Of course, for anyone who has played a Mesmer, we know that this is not true. Often, Mesmers have to be the most skilled players in Guild Wars (besides monks), to adapt to their environment, learning what other professions do as well as their own. Often times, Mesmers know what they are doing in the game, and if someone does something wrong, we know what it is. We know how to fix it, and we know how to keep the damage coming. My experience is that with missions, teams without a Mesmer, with mostly melee professions and the like, do a lot worse than one with a Mesmer. Some people may say, "wtf is this guy smoking," and the answer to that is weed /sarcasm. But seriously, a Mesmer can effectively take down targets and boost their teams effectiveness by striking where it hurts, such as removing enchantments and adding hexes. ANYWAY, long story short, maybe you who agree wiht this suggestion aren't taking into consideration that having fun with a Mesmer is all about skill and what you do with the skills in your arsenal.

-Dean

P.S: /notsigned

LONGA · Sep 12, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Mesmer is bad without without inspiration line to manage their energy.there are less Domination/Illusion build that viable for mesmer to use without running out of energy so fast.And those elite interrupt is hard to use too.

I would like to see a FC line buff that will fill up the energy hole for mesmer

Curse You · Sep 12, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Okay, interrupt 1/2 Orison of Healing or, better one, Dismiss Condition with 0,375 cast time ~~ Did you forgot that bosses in F and NF have halved cast time of skills?

Maybe you should prepare for such situations? That is, after all, part of what the mesmer class is about.

Try,
[skill]Frustration[/skill] or [skill]Migraine[/skill] or [skill]Stolen Speed[/skill] or one of the new EotN skills Confusing Images.

Lyllrik · Sep 12, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Mesmers are not usuless. See Hawkeye's post.

I use Gwen/Norgu all the time and most people I play PvE with wants Gwen/Norgu in the team for interrupting bosses.

So /not signed

I don't see the problem with the recent "nerfs". I can still play my mesmer and interupt monsters with or without the above mentioned skills. Fast Casting is not usless - there is no 50% weapon mod - your 20% weapon mod don't trigger for 100% for your spells. Otherwise you'd be seeing my Ele spike Ivoke, Orb and Hammer nonstop.

And now for this whining about Fast-casting being useless. Fast casting is "tied" to those 3 sec casting skills like Backfire and Diversion. Maybe even on most of those 2 sec casting skills as well. Take a look an "fast casting" in wiki. With 15 FC you cast spells 200% faster. I don't call this attribute cheap or underpowered. Combine with Mantra of Recovery and your Power Drains, Power Spikes are almost SPAMMable.

Again, /NOT SIGNED.

If you have problem with energy management or refuse to put attributes in Inspiration Magic or bring those spells it's your problem, A-net gave you energy management skills. You just didn't want to use them. I say the same to Warriors and Elementalists who refuse to bring Lion's Comfort/Healing Sig/Aura of Restoration and whine about heals.

Bring a necro with Blood Ritual if you dont want your Inspiration Magic. Do the same as those warriors/elementalists/necros who "don't have space" in their skillbar for selfheal & Wards - they bring someone else to heal them, a monk or a ritualist.

You want to roll a pure Domination&Illusion build, you have sacrifice points from FC or Inspiration. You can't have everything. Elementalists usually don't bring 4 elements in one skillbar - warriors usually don't pack sword and axe skills in one skillbar! (Although, I won't mind if A-net added dual wielding hehehe.)

GW is about teamplay, not solo. They nerfed spells like Backfire and Diversion, Drain Enchant just so players would HAVE to bring a mesmer to make usefulness of those spells. To be honest these "nerfs" BENEFITS you mesmers rather then nerf you, so I don't see why you are complaining.

What some player mesmers need however, is to go back to Shing Jea and train your skills. The only reason I don't bring mesmer in my party is not because you are gimped but because you miss 9/10 with your interupts. In other words, if you can't interupt better than Gwen/Norgu, you are not worthy a place in my party.

/NOT SIGNED

Edit: I can see it; Warriors whining about rangers running droks with Balanced Stance, Elementalists whining about warriors "abusing" Obsidian Flesh, Monk whining about other proffessions using Mend Conditions etc etc...

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 12, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

This post is not about wether or not mesmers are useful/useless. This post is proposing a way to make their skills more critical to the mesmer primary by linking them to fast casting so they cant be used in ways that some people think are abusive by secondary mesmers. Last time I checked Backfire got a nice buff, so I dont think you know what you are talking about Lyllrik. Also anyone with the least tiny drop of what can be called skil in this game knows that mesmers are useful. This post as previously stated is not about being bored with a mesmer or anything else other than what is stated in the OP, so please dont make it into that so you can writ something to boost your ego and make you feel a little better about you skill in playing the game Dean. Just keep it about the OP.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 12, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

/kindofsigned.... something needs to be done, but i see some potential abuse if this was implemented.

Vanquisher · Sep 12, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Mo/N
Divine Boon, Reversal of Fotune, Guardian, Offering of Blood {E}, Protective Spirit, Holy Veil, Contemplation of Purity, Mend Ailment

Me/E
Elementalist Attunement {E}, Air Attunement, Gale/Windborne Speed, Lightning Orb, Lightning Strike, Enervating Charge, Blinding Flash, Res Sig

W/E
Gale, Eviscerate {E}, Executioner's Strike, Axe Rake, Frenzy, Rush, Healing Signet, Res Sig

W/R
"I Will Avenge You!", Charm Animal, Tiger's Fury, Eviscerate, Executioner's Strike, Predatory Season, Distracting Blow, Res Sig

Quote:

The class is not overpowered and probably by themselves are one of weakest classes in the game.

You are so incredibly wrong it's ridiculous.

Quote:

What we have? Faster cast, wow.

Diversion, Energy Burn, Energy Surge, various good Signets, strong Enchantment removal, amazing interrupts, a skill that breaks spells balanced by recharge, good Hex options, etc.

Balance in regards to PvE really doesn't matter as much as you make it out to, but if you're really that annoyed about it;

Shatter Enchantment, Shatter Hex, Hex Eater Vortex, Energy Surge, Energy Burn. All of those do good damage, most are AE. All have a postive effect.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 12, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

/not signed

My mesmer still does fine in PvE and I don't see the need for changes.

And mesmers are still devastating in AB. When I see a mesmer I don't bother attacking it, I just move on and continue capping shrines (actually I don't attack anyone if I could get to a shrine instead; it's the only way to beat the mobbing tactics the Luxons use every single game) because I know that chances are my build isn't equipped to deal with a mesmer. (So far, to my experience a good mesmer will always beat me unless I'm spirit spamming).

Lyllrik · Sep 12, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

I know what I'm "talking" about.

"Domination/Illusion/Inspiration etc etc makes mesmer good, not Fast Casting. Please move shatter enchant, backfire, all those spells to Fast-cast attribute so Eles can't use it!"

It's not the Energy Storage that makes the ele "good" or the strength that makes tha warrior "good". Even with Elemental Attunement "nerfed" I can still Me/E with an " of enchanting" staff. Its the 16 X element or 16 X weaponskill.

Mesmer gets fast casting as primary. And I repeat. Backfire, Diversion, all your 3 or 2 sec spells are "linked" to your fast casting.

And this "nerf" just benefits mesmers.

You can play Me/E and still be able to fireball just like a ele (except you don't have 16 fire) and still be able to work effective with that.

But a Ele/monk/necro/dervish/assassin CANNOT be a mesmer and try cast diversion/backfire/lots of 2-3 sec spells effectively because they don't have FC.

They nerfed backfire and they "tied" it to FC with the 3 sec casting time. For an Ele this is a "nerf" since they won't stand still and cast a 3 sec Backfire that dont even do enough damage to be worth it. For a Mesmer? Eh, no big deal. That's like 0.4.sec more casting time.

Same with those big cooldowns. You get Mantra of Recovery from Fast casting. Other proffessions don't. They can't make good use of your spells, but you can.

Nemo the Capitalist · Sep 13, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Puppeteer

/notsigned

Me/E - fast casting nuker
oh noes! the nasty mesmers are abusing our ele skills :O... /sarcasm

its due to comments like this that i fear for humanity.

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 13, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Putting skills from the domination line into fast casting would create problems that would really result in mesmer nerfs. Putting shatter enchant, Backfire, Diversion, etc would enable people to create super powerful mesmer builds that would be able to cast powerful spells from the domination line with no attribute in domination. People would be able to create super powered bars with all the best stuff across all the mesmer attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Diversion, Energy Burn, Energy Surge, various good Signets, strong Enchantment removal, amazing interrupts, a skill that breaks spells balanced by recharge, good Hex options, etc.

Balance in regards to PvE really doesn't matter as much as you make it out to, but if you're really that annoyed about it;

Shatter Enchantment, Shatter Hex, Hex Eater Vortex, Energy Surge, Energy Burn. All of those do good damage, most are AE. All have a postive effect.

All of that stuff is what a mesmer is supposed to do. What was said is by itself a mesmer is probably one of the weakest classes in the game which carries an entirely different meaning than your interpretation of it.

This isnt really about balance in PvE this is about a game mechanic that would effect balance in PvP and PvE.

Hawkeye · Sep 13, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

The only thing that is ridiculous are the incredible idiots like you that want to spout off some BS like oh you are so incredibly wrong its ridiculous and I know because Im a "pro" PvPer that plays "at the top level of the game." Grow a cerebral cortex moron.

*giggles like a little school girl*

Sab · Sep 13, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Exactly what skills do you have a problem with? I can't think of too many that have been nerfed because of "abuse" by other classes.

Mantra of Recall - was never used by Mesmers anyway, if they need an Inspiration e-management elite, they'd run Energy Drain.

Energy Drain - Even if this was back to pre-nerf, there are better options for e-management now - Auspicious Incantation, Power Drain or even Energy Tap under Mantra of Recovery, or Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Drain Enchantment - They buffed it again, and it has always been perfectly usable.

Shatter Enchantment - I have no idea what you're talking about.

Other skills that have been nerfed were powerful in and of themselves, such as Spiritual Pain. It's nothing to do with secondary abuse. Please give specifics, as theorycrafting can only go so far.

Vanquisher · Sep 13, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

This isnt really about balance in PvE this is about a game mechanic that would effect balance in PvP and PvE.

And would be a terrible idea and implementation because the game was designed around a dual class system. Maybe you should get a clue before insulting me.

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 13, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Nothing in the the OP suggestion would change that, skills would still be usable by secondaries, just not to the same degree as a primary. A mechanic like the one suggested already exists for other some other classes and is built into some of the skills for other classes. Oh yeah, you are the only one allowed to be insulting, must have missed that. You did nothing to provoke it.

BLOODGOAT · Sep 13, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

a+ debating thread

Would read again. (And I don't even use a Mesmer.)